Got a tip for Noah?
SEND IT!
(Guaranteed Confidential)
Subscribe

Subscribe via RSS

Archives by Date
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006

See all Archives
Archives by Category
'Canes
Ammo and Munitions
Armor
Axe in Iraq (and Elsewhere)
Bizarro
Blimps
Blog Bidness
Bomb Squad
Cammo Green
Chem-Bio
Cloak and Dagger
Comms
Cops and Robbers
Data Diving
Dissent Tech
Drones
Eat My Dust
Eye on China
FCS Watch
FOS Files
Gadgets and Gear
Ground Vehicles
Guns
Homeland Security
Info War
Iraq Diary
Lasers and Ray Guns
Less-lethal
Logistics
Los Alamos and Labs
Medic!
Mercs
Missiles
Money Money Money
Net-Centric
Nukes
Planes, Copters, Blimps
Politricks
Rapid Fire
Raptor Watch
Red Team
Retro-Futuro
Roll Your Own
Sabra Tech
Ships and Subs
Space
Strategery
Terror Tech
The Deadlies
Those Nutty Norks
Training and Sims
War Update
You can run...

See all Archives
Related Links
News and Intel
Military.com News
Aviation Week
Natl Defense Mag
Strategy Page
Global Security Newswire
Soldiers for the Truth
Security News
Defense Review
Fed Comp Week

Security Sources
GlobalSecurity.Org
Fed Am Sci
CSIS
Ctr for Defense Info
Defense & Natl Interest
Instit for Sci & Intl Secy
Secrecy News
POGO
Cryptome
The Memory Hole
Natl Security Archive

Geeks and Mad Scientists
Slashdot
Wired News
Security Focus
The Register
Gizmodo
Geek Press
Robots.Net
Cosmic Log
Space Daily
New Scientist
TechCentralStation
Engadget
Space.Com
Technology Review
Gyre
Near Near Future
Fed Dev Blog

Bloggers and Buddies
Phil Carter
Global Guerillas
Jeffrey Lewis
Milblogging
OPFOR
Laura Rozen
Larisa Alexandrovna
Juan Cole
Ryan Singel
Josh Marshall
Cursor
Boing Boing
InstaPundit
Winds of Change
Tapped
TalkLeft
Brad DeLong
Mountain Runner
Gene Healy
Clive Thompson
Greg Djerejian
Jeff Quinton
Workbench
Electrolite
Jim Henley
War in Context
Kathryn Cramer
Wash Park Prophet
Blogs of War
Tom Shachtman

Official Dispatches
DARPA
AF Research Lab
Marine War Lab
Soldier Systems Ctr
Naval Research
Army Research Lab
UK Def Sci Lab
NASA News
DoJ Cybercrime

Military Network
Military Benefits
Veteran Employment
GI Bill Express
Personnel Locator
Free ASVAB
The Few
Fred's Place
Army Insider
Navy Insider
Air Force Insider
Marine Corps Insider
Coast Guard Insider



Edited by Noah Shachtman | Contact

Kidding Around

It's as if the U.S. Navy added 30 destroyers in three years. That's how much the Pentagon is beefing up Tawain's fleet, with two pairs of retired Kidd-class anti-air destroyers. The first set was transferred on Oct. 29. The second pair will be handed over in 2007.

Kidd.jpgThe Kidds were retired by the U.S. Navy in the mid-1990s and purchased by Taiwan in 2001. With the advent of the Arleigh Burke class armed with Aegis radar, Vertical Launch System for SM-2 missiles, the rail-launcher-armed Kidds became redundant, despite being less than 20 years old when retired.

At 9,000 tons displacement, the Kidds will increase by one-third the tonnage of Taiwan’s major surface combatant force. (Lately the U.S. has been decreasing its surface fleet by as many as ten hulls and tens of thousands of tons per year.)

Besides significantly bulking up Taiwan’s navy, the Kidds will give the force its first modern air-defense capability and should prove a significant deterrent against China’s largely-outdated surface fleet, which depends heavily on land-based air cover. The Kidd deal has understandably angered China. While many in the U.S. are eager to tout China as the next superpower and a naval rival, cooler heads point out that China is heavily dependent on maritime trade and energy imports and that its naval modernization is largely intended to secure sea lines of communication and to counterbalance Indian intrusion into regional waters. Besides, on the seas China is still a generation behind the U.S. and years behind Taiwan. The Kidds only extend that disparity.

-- David Axe

Latest Comments

It is interesting to see so many comments except the underlying reason China would go after Taiwan, and that’s because of oil in the Spratly Islands. Tell me we are fighting a war for nothing in Iraq, and oil is not the reason. How much are we paying at the pump now? The PRC see's us doing it, and to them that sets the example. Not to mention them trying to buy American oil companies. As to air power. The PRC has something like 800 medium range missiles pointed at Taiwan at such a short distance that the Taiwan air force could never get off the ground before its wiped out if it was targeted, and they just had major landing exercises along with Russian Troops, ships and aircraft.
If it takes a couple patriot missiles to take out one scud then how many will Taiwan need? I doubt they have a hundred.
They are building new pipelines from Russia and the middle east, but why pay for it when you can have it for free. Of course that would upset the economic balance of the world, but if they are making everything for everybody anyway whats the difference. The european aircraft maker Airbus wants to start building their jetliners in China and save a few bucks. The European clothing industry is about to be wiped out because they can't compete with China. Taiwan could just be a big training exercise for the Chinese military that no one wants to be involved with like Hitler and Austria. He did say that Austria was really a part of Germany before WW1 just like Poland.
Deja Vu

Posted by: Franklin at November 10, 2005 9:07 PM


David Axe,

Thank you for your well considered response. I also hope that you are not mistaken, however, I fear that you might well be. I do not question that the Chinese are capable of considerable empty rhetoric, unfortunately, they have in recent years chosen to increase this rhetoric in response political developments in Taiwan. In making increasingly loud threats, the Chinese have placed themselves in a position where they eventually must either act or be seen as ineffectual. It is difficult to believe that in making such threats the mainland is primarily motivated by a desire to dissuade Taiwanese voters or politicians from declaring independence - eventually, if the current situation continues, the Taiwanese will make such a declaration. Rather, I believe that the PRC is making explicit a threat that they will carry out at a time of their own choosing: think Korea 1950.

Exacerbating this motivation is the fact that it has been some time since the Chinese have experienced the deleterious effects of war - Vietnam in the late 1970s. Certainly there must have emerged leaders in the PRC military who are eager to demonstrate that they are capable of better planning and execution than was demonstrated in the badly bungled Vietnam operation. An economic downturn, which must afflict the PRC eventually, might well increase the attractiveness of such a campaign as it would provide the party with the means to justify its leadership to a dissatisfied population.

Your points regarding the technical and material limitations on the Chinese military are well taken. However, China has assets that could mitigate these limitations. For instance, China might make limited use of its nuclear weapons, or, might threaten the use of such weapons in order to discourage active resistance by certain factions and individuals within the Taiwanese military, at least a portion of whose membership either sympathetic to the PRC call for unification, or, believe that resistance is futile (sentiments that were alluded to by another reader). In addition, China possesses the vestigial institutions and inclinations necessary for the type of revolutionary societal mobilization warfare that shocked the U.S. in both Korea and Vietnam. In the context of an invasion of Taiwan, such warfare might take the form of "flooding the zone" with an invasion fleet consisting of thousands of troop laden fishing boats. All in all, I think that the risk of a forceble attempt by the PRC to reunite Tawian with greater China is a tangible concern that is not to be written off as the pipe dream of pentagon planners searching for a new threat. The U.S. must either find ways to deter such an eventuallity, or, it should have the honesty to inform the Taiwanese that they are on their own and therefore should make the best deal possible with the mainland.

Posted by: J. Brenner at November 1, 2005 1:49 PM


I think there's quite a bit of complacency about what China can do, accompanied by underestimates of Chinese intentions and capabilities. For example, the number of Su-27/30s given in the comments above is incorrect, the current figure is nearly twice that, about 380. China now has more modern aircraft than Taiwan does, and many of Taiwan's 'modern' aircraft are the untested IDF.

This is a chronic topic of discussion on the Taiwan blogs. Here and here for a debate between myself and MeiZhongTai, who blogs on Taiwan defense issues, over how things will proceed. I also have a speculative China Blitz scenario here that is well worth reading, with links to other ones.

Michael

The fact is that Taiwan's military is staffed largely by mainlanders who may go over to China if it gets troops onto the island. The island's two mainlander-led parties are both more or less pro-China.

Posted by: Michael Turton at November 1, 2005 8:04 AM


Yeah, look at how we won WW2. It was our superior manufacturing capability that brought us through that one. And look at us now... Oh wait, we're a service economy now, in debt to our eyeballs to countries like China. Countries with service economies get their asses kicked in wars with countries who have manufacturing economies. Boy, I hope China never develops one of those.

Posted by: Dfens at October 31, 2005 7:25 PM


Given that China wants to sieze Taiwan I imagine thay are pissed.


I do think that China is likely overated as an emerging superpower, but giving the Taiwanese a helping hand in preserving their independence seems to be a good rather than a bad thing.

While the goals listed in the article are all accurate, it does omit one biggie, invading Taiwan. That said, increasing the disparity would seem to be not really a bad thing.

Posted by: Ken Talton at October 31, 2005 5:38 PM


» View All 8 Comments

» Post a Comment