War is hell. But it’s worse when the Marines bring out their new urban combat weapon, the SMAW-NE. Which may be why they’re not talking about it, much.
This is a version of the standard USMC Shoulder Mounted Assault Weapon but with a new warhead. Described as NE – “Novel Explosive”- it is a thermobaric mixture which ignites the air, producing a shockwave of unparalleled destructive power, especially against buildings.
A post-action report from Iraq describes the effect of the new weapon: “One unit disintegrated a large one-storey masonry type building with one round from 100 meters. They were extremely impressed.” Elsewhere it is described by one Marine as “an awesome piece of ordnance.”
It proved highly effective in the battle for Fallujah. This from the Marine Corps Gazette, July edition: “SMAW gunners became expert at determining which wall to shoot to cause the roof to collapse and crush the insurgents fortified inside interior rooms.”
The NE round is supposed to be capable of going through a brick wall, but in practice gunners had to fire through a window or make a hole with an anti-tank rocket. Again, from the Marine Corps Gazette:
“Due to the lack of penetrating power of the NE round, we found that our assaultmen had to first fire a dual-purpose rocket in order to create a hole in the wall or building. This blast was immediately followed by an NE round that would incinerate the target or literally level the structure.”
The rational for this approach was straightforward:
“Marines could employ blast weapons prior to entering houses that had become pillboxes, not homes. The economic cost of house replacement is not comparable to American lives…all battalions adopted blast techniques appropriate to entering a bunker, assuming you did not know if the bunker was manned.”
The manufacturers, Talley, make bold use of its track record, with a brochure headlined Thermobaric Urban Destruction.”
The SMAW-NE has only been procured by the USMC, though there are reports that some were ‘borrowed’ by other units. However, there are also proposals on the table that thousands of obsolete M-72 LAWs could be retrofitted with thermobaric warheads, making then into effective urban combat tools.
But in an era of precision bombs, where collateral damage is expected to be kept to a minimum, such massively brutal weapons have become highly controversial. These days, every civilian casualty means a few more “hearts and minds” are lost. Thermobaric weapons almost invariable lead to civilian deaths. The Soviet Union was heavily criticized for using thermobaric weapons in Afghanistan because they were held to constitute “disproportionate force,” and similar criticisms were made when thermobarics were used in the Chechen conflict. According to Human Rights Watch, thermobaric weapons “kill and injure in a particularly brutal manner over a wide area. In urban settings it is very difficult to limit the effect of this weapon to combatants, and the nature of FAE explosions makes it virtually impossible for civilians to take shelter from their destructive effect.”
So it’s understandable that the Marines have made so little noise about the use of the SMAW-NE in Fallujah. But keeping quiet about controversial weapons is a lousy strategy, no matter how effective those arms are. In the short term, it may save some bad press. In the long term, it’s a recipe for a scandal. Military leaders should debate human right advocates and the like first, and then publicly decide “we do/do not to use X”. Otherwise when the media find do find out – as they always do — not only do you get a level of hysteria but there is also the charge of “covering up.”
I’m undecided about thermobarics myself, but I think they should let the legal people sort out all these issues and clear things up. Otherwise you get claims of “chemical weapons” and “violating the Geneva Protocol.” Which doesn’t really help anyone. The warfighter is left in doubt, and it hands propaganda to the bad guys. Just look at what happened it last week’s screaming over white phosphorous rounds.
THERE’S MORE: Americans aren’t the only ones with these weapons. The Chinese, the Russians — even guerilla groups — now have thermobarics’ shockingly destructive power in their grasps.
And, gawdam, I just can’t pass up responding to Voltron who gets his nick from his fondness for sticking his finger into empty light sockets. A history course might do you some good as well. This fair America, this beacon of liberty to the world, would not be the United States of America were it not for the French. Had they not come here and helped out, you would be a Brit. LaFayette’s help is downplayed by our current propagandists but we couldntna dun it widout ‘em, ol’ buddy. So have a little more respect for folks that you owe your ‘free’ ass to. merci. And just for you knee jerkers who are for sending our kids to kill and be killed, brutalize and be brutalized, in the name of political corruption, and have never bothered to enlist yourselves, I got 4 looonnng years in the crotch (including 23 days in the CherryPoint brig, my fondest memory). Your turn.
This new weapon is just another toy for the death slinging fools in Washington. War is Money, we spend more on defense and war and death machines than the entire world put together. We should turn killing into theme parks. Seems to be what we do best, kill kill kill. If only we could kill more…
War is Hell, Patton said make the B. die for his country….. , as a Marine combet Viet- vet. the French can’t fight thier way out of a paper bag ,, no wonder the French lost all it’s fights , they sit in a fort, and get there ASS BEAT , that’s history. I Trained with the Legion , THEY are bunch of Drunks , and Missfits that EURO, does not want. As for Viet Nam the CFR – (one-Worlders) that control the World , gave away vietnam. WAKE UP GUYS ,, WE HAVE BEEN TAKEN OVER A LONG TIME AGO. They are not going to tell us. I say Learn To speak China , as that is the Military that will be called in to control the next problem , better yet the amerika sheeple will demand it . Think I’am wrong , the people in New Orleans proved it , The government must save me . THATS your god , who you call in trouble is your god… as for our current Military It’s too small to save amerika in a Real fight.. and we have some good men in our military , but fact is its too small, and high Tect. is not going to save us, our high schools no longer teach rifle. Protect our 2nd adment. rights. if we still have any men left?????????????????????????????????????/
I’m just wondering how soon we the American people are going to be seeing these weapons being used upon US, by “our” government, in their ongoing war against “political incorrectness”. As in “Take that, you **** Christians, for being so **** intolerant!” The leadership of both major parties is committed to this diabolical madness. The world is a vast lunatic asylum being run by its worst inmates. God help us all.
…Maybe it’s just that I’ve had a bad day and some of the comments I’ve seen on this “blog,” posing for intelligent conversation, but I’ve reached the decision that I fully endorse the use of this man-portable FAE on fundamentalist DUMNS**TS such as some of the morons posting, here.
That is all-
…Mere mortals.
Awesome!! Can you post an NSN and line number so we can order a bunch for our upcoming deployment? Thanks!
this weapon is awesome. i want one.
i think the employment of the weapon in falluja is appropriate, strategic, effective. seriously, i want one.
Can’t wait ’till everybody has one of these to hunt squirrels with.
War is inhumane. What else is it. Are you going to ban war because it’s inhumane. Would be nice, but the world doens’t work that way. I call the use of these rockets, very humane. They save the lives of my fellow Marines. A real weapon of philanthropy, in my opinion. lol
JUST SEARCH IN YAHOO: BUSH MIND CONTROL SCANDAL.
BEST, Al
Great new tool!
I get so tickled and sick all at the same time, watching us ham-string ourselves when it comes to fighting war… enemies that will kill us – both civilians and military personel, wholesale and by any means possible. It is nearly impossible to win a war, fighting with one hand tied behind your back and the other one with a mitten on. I wish both Marines and Army troops had this new thermobaric LAWS and hopefully a thermobaric round for the M203 and similar 40mm grenade launchers will be out soon, if not already. Kill the enemy and destroy his/her will to fight is the only way to victory, and weapons like the thermobaric weapons, with both the psychological and physical effects are the kinds of weapons needed to achieve this.
JMHO!
Weapons of war cannot be seperated from the process of war, which is a political act carried out by violent means. And the level and technique of force must be tempered against the desired political outcome.
In other words, if you’re chasing Osama into a cave, feel free to blow up the whole mountain.
If you’re going through a town, be discreet in who and what you blow away. Then you must discipline anybody who deliberately goes out of his or her way to kill anything that moves.
Again – back to Clauswitz. War is conducted to achieve a series political and economic goals. Never forget that no matter how many people you kill, they will STILL never come love and admire you for it. Or fully cooperate with you.
Either fight the damned war or don’t. Whether we blow up countless civilians or not, they’re going to hate us. Screw ‘em. Our guys are sent there to do a job & tying their hands & wringing our own hands about how they’re doing their job & whether they’re killing people or hurting their feelings isn’t going to help them do their job & win this stupid war & come home. Human rights advocates should not figure into a war. It’s kill or be killed.
JUST A SIGN OF THE TIMES. WE ARE IN THE LAST DAYS OF HOW WE KNOW THE WORLD. IN A MATTER OF TIME THIS WORLD AS WE KNOW IT WILL CHANGE BEFORE OUR VERY EYES AND WILL NEVER BE THE SAME AGAIN.WHETHER PEOPLE WANT TO BELIEVE IN GOD OR NOT THEY WILL EVENTUALLY CALL OUT HIS NAME BEFORE THEIR LAST BREATH AND THOSE THAT DON’T WILL BOW AND CONFESS BEFORE HIM AFTER THEIR LAST BREATHS.THINGS ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE ON THIS EARTH AS LONG AS MEN OR WOMEN TRY TO CONTROL THEIR OWN DESTINIES.IF WE THINK THINGS ARE TERRIBLE NOW, WAIT AND SEE JUST HOW BAD THEY ARE GONNA BE IN THE NEXT YEAR OR SO. WE ARE ONLY IN THE BIRTH PAINS OF THINGS TO COME. OUR GREAT GRANDFATHERS THOUGHT THINGS WERE BAD DURING THE LAST DEPRESSION, IT WAS NOTHING COMPARED TO WHAT’S COMING NEXT.WE HAD A GREAT DEAL MORE MORALITY THEN THAN NOW. WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN WITH THIS GENERATION OF NO MORALS WHEN THINGS GET BAD. DO YOU THINK THEY’LL JUST GO SOMEWHERE ELSE AND FIND A JOB TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES. NO THEY WILL KILL ONE ANOTHER AND EAT THE FLESH OF THEIR OWN FAMILIES. YES IT’S GONNA GET THAT BAD. GOD HELP US. WE HAVE HAD THIS COMING FOR QUITE A WHILE NOW. WHAT WE HAVE SOWN WE ARE ABOUT REAP.
We invade someone else’s country, then get mad because they kill some of us! Amazing! Americans are arrogant, ignorant butchers of the world. Hopefully, someday the same things we have been inflicting on third world people will be inflicted on our people, in the spirit of what goes around, comes around. Imagine a little napalm used on american cities and towns, the way we used it in viet nam, or a 500 pound precision bomb dropped on the ny stock exchange the way we drop them all over villages in Iraq and Afghanistan, or one of the above “novel exposives” used at a football stadium, rather than a building in Iraq. I guess that would be unfair, as only we and the Is-piss jews get to use those weapons.
Let’s hope the IDF/IAF uses tons of these in Lebanon.
whoever spoke there in big caps.
i didtn read it.
you know the rules and you broke it.
i am sorry, maybe you had something interesting to say, but you broke it.
That’s a pretty amazing piece of hardware. Excellent for MOUT Operations. I suppose the US Army will equip it´s personnel with the NE round. I can see great use for it even in special operations. Imagine the firepower available for a SF detachment,and everybody else for that matter, if one could use the NE on the Santa Barbara. I’m European and I got to say this to the US : Keep investigating, keep fighting for you have been the west’s spearhead. We in Europe are not aware yet that war is upon us…at least our politicians and human rights intellectuals are not…Keep fighting
Hey KJS:
You brave Israelis’ and your lickspittle Kwan jannissaries are going to be in for a lot more than thermobaric weapons. Lets see how you like it.
It never ceases to amaze me how these post stay sofar from the central question to include everything from: weather or not we should be in Iraq to armageddon to who has the longest basic training? I am suprised no1 has yet worked in a good Bar-B-Q rib recipe. Considering the weapon in question.
The question was: What do u think of the new Urban weapon? I 4 one, love it. Why? Because, once the boots hit the ground, the people wearing them deserve our full support. This includes any innovation that will help them to continue to wear these boots after they have come into contact with those who wish to kill them.
One should not truly discuss war and the right or wrong of it if he or she doesn’t possess the balls to involve one’s self in it and gain first hand experience. And as far as what military is better, “If you bleed with me you are my brother” thats all that matters.
Yeah, maybe it’s time you all realize the truth. Pacifying a people who have been fighting amongst themselves for THOUSANDS of years is not possible. They will fight because they always have and they don’t know what else to do. We are fighting people who would love to come to America and kill our citizens. Funny how we are seen as the problem when the majority of the attacks as of late are against IRAQI CIVILIANS and IRAQI GOVERNMENT WORKERS! When we use this weapon, it is an obvious obstacle to the rapid destruction of this terrible and ridiculous band of thugs. As for “beenthere,” being in the brig for 23 days doesn’t enhance your credibility, it just shows what type of Marine you were. I’ve met many like you, you all deserve the brig. We do what we are told to do. We are told to end the insurgency in Iraq. We will do that to the best of our ability. When you try to end an ideology, it lends to ending the live of ideological fanatics. People who do not respect who they fight or know what they truly are doing. What are the insurgents in Iraq doing? We haven’t lost enough men in the WHOLE WAR as a bad WEEK in Vietnam! They are merely causes enough strife to keep the news going. In my opinion, change over the power to the Iraqis, let them kill each other, as they have been, and defend against attacks where we need to. Help get Africa out of it’s backwardness. But we need to leave Iraq with an idea that we did what we could, that we deposed the dictator and that there was little we coudl do to stop the fanaticism. Simple.
What are we doing in a country halfway around the world? Don’t we have enough shit to worry about here? Nice weapon, kill sand niggers.
Hey, Sgt USMC, are you saying that you have to be willing to kill, or at least help others kill, in order to have an opinion on the morality of killing? Man, what kind of jarhead hooyah crap has the core been feeding you?
This is a seriously cool weapon, both for its’ power and for the simplicity of the concept. War would be a serious BLAST(pun intended) if nobody got hurt.
as far as the weapon goes great for the corp…we sit here and talk about the morality of using it..ask the guy who lost his legs to the nail filled IED. anybody that has gone to war knows its brutal,bloody and messy we should use whatever resources we have to bring our brothers and sisters home in one piece.
this kind of warhead has its use but civilian casualities MUST be avoided, a shockwave weapon only with limited range and power (programable warhead) could be better.
And if USA wants to win, stop using drugs with the troops like in afganistan and be less happy trigger, your cowboy aproach dont work.
Great weapon to lessen deaths to our troops. Any pill box or house containing combatants is fair game. As to the question of why we are there half way around the world: We are there because if we were not there, they would be here sooner. It is better to make the poor terrorist bastards die for Mohammad and collect their 70 preteen virgins whom they can abuse for eternity, than let the little goat molesters fulfill their fantasy of killing us.
If you use the main concept of the warhead but eliminate the launcher/propellant section of the rocket and turn it into a little nasty bomb, how many can be stuffed into a B-52 attack group?
F ‘em all. For every nasty little cocksucker that takes up arms against the American forces and gets captured or killed we should identify him by name and then wipe his whole villiage of origin off the face of the map, no matter what country it is in. Then bomb its respective capital as punishment for not preventing it.
Great weapon and concept!
To all the bleeding heart liberals out there, you fight them there or fight them here! Which one do you want?? Get the Politicians and Media out of there and let the Military do what they do best. KILL!
Things should be censored like they were in WW II. Only let the public know what is necessary. Now, it seems like the Politicians and Media are trying to undermine the good old US of A! What ever happened to the “let’s pull together and get the job done” attitude!
Once a war has begun, the only sensible debate is how to win it effectively and with the least bloodshed. This particular BDM is effective; and while one may bemoan collateral losses any pragmatist knows that a war zone is a war zone. Plenty of things detonating out there. I don’t quite understand the fervor over this or that particular type of explosion – seems simple. Blow up bad guys. Mk 19 40mm gl pretty destructive too – want to ban that? Stupid.
I feel that thermobaric weapons offer military commanders and our political leadership a useful increase in the range of weapons systems at their disposal.
I can imagine that very large thermobaric weapons with the latest fuels with a fuel mass of 10 metric tons to 20 metric tons, if developed, could provide for combat operations that border on strategic confrontations. Thus, a strike on the strategic above ground targets and other assets with hundreds if not thousands of such units might alleviate the need for deployment of nuclear weapons with all of the radioactive fallout that would otherwise result.
Thermobaric weapons can in theory destroy the inside of underground shelters wherein communication with the above ground atmosphere would permit thermobaric weapons fuels to enter and destroy the contents of the structure with heat, blast pressure, and secondary fires.
Robust thermobaric penetrating bombs can hold super hardened underground structures and bunkers at risk provided that the bombs can penetrate into or almost into the interior of such facilities.
I have never served in the military, however, as a conservative Catholic U.S. citizen who tends to vote republican, I am in favor of a very strong national defense including the wide variety of tools at our disposal to secure our freedom.
Some will question why I hype the development of powerful weapons systems and my response is the famous quote that “The price of peace is eternal vigilance.” Some folks will say that the present U.S. administration is acting like Hitler however I will counter such arguments that regimes and terrorist organizations that have no qualms with the visceral and cruel violence of suicide bombing children, mothers, and newlyweds in themselves are beyond the normal possibility of conversion. Even the acts of pedophiles who may murder a few children at most, acts which I deeply condemn, do not even come close to cruel acts such as tricking vulnerable mentally ill or mentally retarded woman into carrying suicide vests into large family oriented market crowds which then resulted in the brutal tearing of dozens of persons, infants, toddlers, children, youth, mothers, fathers, and grandparents to shreds. Believe me, these terrorists and rouge regimes will stop at nothing.
We must have peace through strength and deterrence. Rest assure, terrorists such Osama Bin Laden are planning or hoping for even more cruel attacks as I compose this message.
Hi Folks;
In this age where fighting terrorist organizations seems to have eclipsed in importance even the former Cold War, I have no qualms about proposing the following types of weapons systems such as might be used to attack terrorist training camps, enemies bunkers, and other hard and soft targets.
The first version of such a system I will discuss involves a duel mode lethality bomb. In essense, the device would consist of a thermobaric weapon and a shrapnel weapon such as either a large single round or a cluster bomb. The idea here is that the thermbaric round would be detonated first with all of its lethal heat and blast pressure, after which lethal antipersonel or anti armour shrapnel weapons would be set of in the same area effected by the lethal effects and sub-lethal effects of the thermobaric weapon. The idea here is that any persons lucky enough to survive the thermobaric weapon stage such as those who might have been shielded from such or who were just beyond the range of the weapons lethal effects would face a burst of lethal shrapnel which hopefully would kill them off. The shrapnel could be extraordinarilly effective at killing those who were injured by the thermobaric blast but still living, based upon these persons compromized physical state such as the onset of shock from the blast and or heat injuries resulting from the thermobaric stage.
A second type duel mode lethality weapon would involve a thermobaric device that is detonated followed by a nerve agent or other chemical agent such as Sarin, VX agents, or the binary agent chemicial weapons that were developed by the U.S. during the Cold War. The terrorists or militants who somehow survived the effects of the thermobarric stage would have to cope with the lethal effects of a chemical weapon which could be of a much smaller scope than that of the large battlefield killing chemical weapons developed and deployed during the Cold War which would not be needed on such a large scale since the physical condition of the injured but still living enemy combatants would have been highly compromized by the thermobaric charge.
A third type of dual mode lethality weapons would be one wherein a thermobaric charge is set off whereupon, a single charge or multiple bomblet charge of some increadably corrosive acid or basic chemical compound, or perhaps multiple chemical compounds, is set off with lethal effects for any survivors of the thermbaric blast.
A fourth type of duel mode weapons might entail one that sets off a web of taser like streamers by the hundreds to thousands whereupon a thermobaric weapon would be discharged afterward exposing those incapacitated to the full brunt of the single thermobaric charge or multiple bomblet thermobaric charges. The combatants thus effected could not prepare themselves for the thermobaric blast.
A fifth type of dual mode weapons would entail the deployment and detonation of a thermobaric weapon followed by a single or multiple charge traditional incendiary weapon such as napalm, white phosphorous charges, etc.
Now, other options for this technology include combining any two more more of the folowing lethal modes in any temporal sequence; Thermobaric charges, Shrapnel Weapons, Chemical Weapons, Acidic or Basic Flesh Destroying Corrosive Agents, Electrodynamic Stun Weapons such as Taser streamers, and Traditional Incendiary Charges. Thus three-mode, four-mode, and five-mode lethality weapon systems could be used. Any ot these weapons systems could be scaled up or down in size and range for appropriate targets. Also, they may be deployed as a single bomb unit or in multiple packages would could be delivered in more or less rapid sucession.
These weapons could be delivered by cruise missles, smart bombs and smart missiles deployed from manned or unmanned aircraft, or by any other
appropriate means.
For bunkers or other harnened below ground targets, a sixth element is considered and that is a combustive-corrosive charge or charges that are the subject of proposed weapons systems to defeat under ground bunkers in place of low yield robust penetrating nuclear weapons, which would still produce large radioactive clouds because the fireballs of such nuclear weapons would break through the surface of the ground over which they were detonated.
spent 9 years in the Army Special forces three of those as a Macv-4 and i wish all you typing mfs would realise this does little or no good just a place to bitch. We have seren this good country go to the dogs the last 10 or so years from no prayer in schools to no 10 commandments in the courtrooms, droping the requirments for education so the dumbest can be equal, bull shit i dont care how dumb and how much bull-shit the politics put out its time to get our act togeather while theirs still a stage to preform on.. period