The seemingly-endlessly soap opera behind the new-fangled Dragon Skin body armor has taken yet another plot twist.
In our last episode, Army program managers in charge of a competing body armor system were publicly dissing the Dragon — while they were in the middle of supposedly impartial tests to gauge the armor’s effectiveness. “To anyone considering purchasing an SOV 3000 Dragon Skin – don’t,” one program manager said on an online forum. “I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents.”
But the National Institute of Justice, which has long rated bullet-proofing systems, has come up with a different opinion, according to Soldiers for the Truth. Within a few weeks, the NIJ will formally certify for Level III protection — good enough to stop AK-47 fire. If I’m not mistaken, that would make the Dragon Skin the first soft armor, without plate inserts, to get that high of a rating. And it would certainly call into question the Army managers’ disparaging remarks about the armor — after Dragon Skin went from ballyhooed to banned to grudgingly accepted for testing, all in a matter of months. Stay tuned…
It’s a little misleading to call Dragonskin soft armor…It does contain hard inserts, but they are small ’scales’ (hence the name) making it highly flexible.
It’s always looked very impressive in other tests, and the Army’s failure to accept it seemed stange. Murray Neal (Pinnacle CEO) has always maintained that he offered a superior product which has been rejected because of the distrust of anything ‘not invented here’. Maybe he will be proved right in the end.
So are we to see a return of the headlines of the $10,000 toilet seat, and the $400 ashtrays, along with the other old days of a completely fubar’d testing and procurment system?
One would like to think that the DOD and others involved would want our guys getting shot at, to have stuff that not only works, but is GOOD in REALITY; not what have what seems nice in paper, or skewed tests, or to further one’s career *cough *boeing*cough*…
Who knows.
Again, it goes back to the war economy. Think about Mr. Noble (inventor of TNT?) During the wars of the 1800’s. Both sides bought Explosives off Mr. Noble. Mr. Noble became rich rich off the sales of explosives.
However, if Mr. Noble was french or british then the french/british would have made more taxing Mr. Noble.
If Dranonskin was an americian company, where in the end, it resulted of americians making money off it’s own military again then it would be recommended.
Back long ago (1950/60?) a man wrote a report to the whitehouse saying that if we made and sold our own weapons, and then sold our weapons to other countries, it would be good for our encomy and thus we can make more weapons and sell them cheaper to ourselves. Thus if we encourage war in other countries than we can keep our own weapons cheap/sustainable thus being able to fund a strong military.
So if you think about the 400,000+ troops & National guard in the US, having to buy them ‘new’ superior body armour at about 500 dollars each (I estimate) that’s 200,000,000. At the end of the Fiscal year Pinnacle gives their government x dollars in taxes… that’s a lot of money that doesn’t go back into the USA.
It’s about miliatry sustainablity
Personally, I’m pretty pissed off, as this just basically proves that a few people in positions of power place their wallets before the lives of our soldiers and marines.
If it does formally get certified, and proven effective(which given some friends of mine who are ex-rangers and recommend dragonskin),I really hope that EVERY single general/civilian/etc. that was involved in trying to sabotage the dragonskin armor, loses their jobs/contracts/etc.
What they did, is downright dispicable. For all we know, if our men could have had this stuff from day 1 in Iraq(and yes it was around back that far), hundreds more of our personell would now be alive. The job of these people is first and foremost to ensure the well-being of our military personell, and they utterly failed in that when they put profit before people.
I’ve been following this story since the very beginning of its introduction to the public, and I don’t know who to believe. It seems that all the “independent” tests except that of the Army do favor Pinnacle. Maybe the Army test used special purpose armor piercing rounds that could defeat Dragon Skin.
There is that famous story of the contractor in Iraq, who was wearing a Dragon Skin vest and was shot several times by 7.62 x 39mm bullets and didn’t even feel it. Don’t know if that story is real or another battlefield myth.
I do know that these Dragon Skin vests are difficult to manufacture and are extremely expensive, with the top of the line maximum protection model costing several thousand dollars a piece. Multiply that by 250,000 and you can see that it would not be possible to field this vest in mass.
My only real concern is how dragon skin can handle high speed blast fragments; because I am sure more troops have been killed by fragmentation than bullets to the upper torso.
I know if I went to Iraq as a civilian I would take my chances with an 18 pound SOV 3000 Dragon Skin vest.
Dragonskin is made by an American company based in Fresno, California. The ‘not invented here’ refers to a product not invented by the Army through the pentagon’s R&D budget. The Army didn’t pay Pinnacle to make Dragon Skin. That is my understanding.
Also, like David Hambling said, Dragon skin is not soft armor, it uses hard armor plates, just small ones overlapping one another.
Dragon Skin in clearly inferior to Interceptor for economic reasons. This country is stupid in that politcians are unwilling to discuss economic issues because of “you are putting a price on human life” nonsense. That is why the Army is deprecating Dragon Skin, so Pinnacle can’t do an end-run around the Army through Congress. This is why Dragon Skin is inferior:
(1) Interceptor already provides effective protection. If dragon skin does provide better protection, the differences would be small enough that it wouldnt make a noticable impact in preventing casualties.
(2) Dragon Skin costs many times more than Interceptor, Ive seen over $5k for dragon skin versus about $1k for interceptor.
(3) Damaged interceptor armor can be repaired cheaply by replacing the damaged armor insert that was hit. By contrast, if a dragon skin gets shot, you have to throw the whole thing away and get a new one. You can’t simply replace the “fish scales” in the field.
Cost matters. The more something costs, the less you can have, or if you absolutely must equip the whole force, then you have less of something else. Is it really a good idea to throw billions of dollars at dragon skin, only to leave our infantry short-changed when it comes to other research/training that has to be cut to make up the difference?
ive seen 7.62 miss the plate in a otv and strike someone in the side or shoulder and cause fatal wounding if the dragonskin can cover more area than and sapi plate then put it in some serious testing.
Interceptor can cover just as much or more area than dragon skin, the problem (with both) is that if you wear all the extra armor to cover as much area as possible, it adds considerable weight and troops wont wear it.
The point is going to be moot because the Army is already looking for the next generation of armor, and it is pretty clear that dragon skin won’t get it.
I personally don’t like the dragon skin concept because it is too expensive and too difficult to repair. Maybe it is a good choice for non-combat types who dont ever plan on getting shot, but it isnt a good choice for people who are going into combat.
NIJ Level III isn’t what DoD requires. Even level IV isn’t what DoD requires. The original SAPI plates were level IV, and have been/are being replaced by heavier ESAPI plates to protect against a classified threat.
So Pinnacle finally getting Level III approval hardly means that it’s as great as its advocates claim.
The fact that DragonSkin didn’t have NIJ approval for anything above IIIA when claiming it could stop AP rounds was what initially made me thing pinnacle was pedaling a line of bull, and the fact that their web site was full of demonstrations and testimonials and empty of test results sure didn’t help counter that impression.
It’s a valid question as to whether we are over armoring (and hence overloading) troops, but that isn’t a politically correct question given the media BS.
Ever wonder why Firestone got hammered over exploding tires on Ford Explorers? Ever wonder about congressional ownership of Ford vs. Firestone stock?
The same principle applies here; while it’s not always clear just who benefits from legislative action and govt. contracts, the competition for them is fierce.
One thing that has been clear for a very long time is that soldiers are expendable – that’s part of the job description. Another is that the primary purpose of war is economics. If it didn’t pay, we wouldn’t do it.
Firestone got hammered because it was their tires exploding. It’s not like Ford Explorers magically make their tires explode.
The following comments are based on my discussion with Murray Neal.
Weight-for-weight, a Dragonskin insert will be able to cover more area than a SAPI insert. So Dragonskin will always give better coverage – either the same coverage for less weight, or greater coverage for the same weight.
Crucially, Dragonskin is much, much more robust than hard armor inserts. SAPI inserts are like china – drop one onto concrete and its gone. Dragonskin can be thrown out of a 2nd storey window and driven over by a Jeep without affecting its integrity.
Equally crucially, the flexibility makes it much more wearable. Armor that is not used gives no protection.
The multi-scale nature of Dragonskin also means that it is much better at withstanding multiple, close-spaced hits than conventional inserts. It may not be repairable in the field (neither is a SAPI plate…) but that doesn’t mean it can’t be repaired.
The cost issue is related to production runs. If you ordered a hundred thousand OTVs, the cost would be very much lower.
However, when you look at the many billions going into other projects (no names….) which probably won’t save a single life, and the political sensitivities involved, then a billion on better body armor might be a very shrewd investment.
I have to comment on the Ford Explorer/Firestone trash: The tires were being run on 3/4 of their originally recommended PSI because their original customers were complaining about the less than Cadillac-ride and Ford wanted them to come back.
The question that still remains is does Dragon Skin stop the real threats that our guys face? These are 7.62 x 39mm type BZ (AK-47 Armor Piercing Incendiary), 7.62 x 54R type B-32 (Armor Piecing Incendiary). AK-47 Type M1943 PS Ball is a “NOT” an Armor Piercing Projectile. So far the manufacturer has tapped danced around answering these questions. The other question is what does a Dragon Skin vest weigh? The weights for Interceptor are well known. My guess is that Dragon Skin is heavier, and does not stop AP, so what makes it better? If I had a vest that was lighter, better performing, I would be proud of its’ technical specifications and they would be published. I cannot find anywhere what Dragon Skin weighs. A vest weight by sizes or an areal density weight which is what the armor industry uses to compare different armors. I have seen their promotional video and although appears impressive, would really be impressive if they were shooting real military threat ammunition which is AP. If they really intended to prove anything, they would have submitted their vest to U.S. Test Labs along with a box of Armor Piercing ammunition and then publish the data. That would certainly go along way to clearing the air and prove who is full of crap. What they have done by making unverified claims is to force the military to clamp down on the troops ability to buy any armor other than what the system provides.
Go to their website, they have all the information. I can’t verify the authenticity of the clams though.
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php
“The SOV-3000â„¢ Level IV, with our large standard tactical front and back panel configuration weighs approximately 17.2 lbs. and varies depending on the level of coverage needed. The SOV-3000â„¢ is manufactured with a ceramic composite.” —-Pinnacle Armor website
I calculate a top of the line maximum front/back/side coverage for multi-hit 7.62mm AP will weigh approx. 21 lbs.
Which are a little lighter and way more coverage than Interceptor OTV with side protection? That is assuming of course all of their test results are independently verified.
Yeah but what Ford never mentioned was that the sway bar links on the explorers would crack partially or just shear in half on a corner because of the steering vs. top heaviness of those SUV’s. Underinflated tires are merely one of the issues, if you think about it someone goes to make an emergency turn or fast lane change and the car just keeps rolling over as the weight shifts, suddenly you have 90% of the vehicle weight on one tire which blows and since the distro is already off it tumbles. The first thing the cops see is the blown tire…
Was under the impression if your vest took hits to the point of damaging the plate, depending on the damage the vest might have to be repaired/thrown away.
The primary factor against Dragonskin is cost. Chainmail was expensive in it’s day too.
For almost 12 years the U.S. Army has been trying to develop Land Warrior Systems that not only protects from small arms but also gives the wearer the ability to carry heavy weight without as much fatigue (basicly a new backpack frame).
This LWS has already cost over one hundred million dollars (not just the suit) and so far only a few of the projects have hit the field (except for testing here in the US).
Our government can not do anything without it costing ten times what it should and taking five times as long as it should to become operational.
If you don’t believe me, ask anyone who has worked in the Pentagon (for more than a few years).
Papa Ray
It all comes down to ‘Does Dragon Skin do what it claims to do?’. Thankfully, the military is finally testing just that, after years of what appear to have been internal politics and conflicts of interest. I just want to see the stuff be given a fair shake, to see if it is more cost-effective than Interceptor, how its effectiveness measures up over-all, and if Pinnacle’s claims are really true.
Dominic, I think you’re going over the top. Soldiers and Marines are being provided more-than-adequate armor protection. As someone else noted, the current ESAPIs and side SAPIs provide NIJ Level IV protection at the least. Also, the vest I was wearing (Paraclete MTV, not Interceptor) could barely fit the ESAPI plates, and as a result they fell out on numerous occasions when I was donning or doffing my body armor. Several times they landed on pavement or concrete, and they never broke.
If they were going to go after an NIJ certification that would actually prove something, they should have tested Dragon Skin against the NIJ Level IV test, which uses the 30.06 AP M2. Then show off the multi-hit capabilities that it has. That would be a test which is hard to argue with. From what I know about armor, there are no new materials out there that would allow for lighter armor. So, if Dragon Skin uses “scales” they will have to overlap at least 30% so that would make Dragon Skin at least 30% heavier than anything else that defeats the same threat projectile. So if I have a vest that weighs 30 lbs, Dragon Skin will wind up weighing 40 lbs or more. That is not better in my book. If you made the Interceptor ESAPI armor 30% thicker/heavier to equal the weight of Dragon Skin, how much better would it work? I say show me a Dragon Skin vest with the same coverage and weight and then test it head to head with what the Army is buying and see which one is better. Things need to be equal to have a fair test, with weight reduction being the most needed by the troops. As far as flexible, that is kind of a myth, since this stuff is heavy it will not be flexible in reality. A pile of steel chain is flexible in theory, but in reality it is impractical the same way that dragon skin is impractical. I say a set of this stuff recently, a contractor going to Iraq bought a set and I put it on. I could not see what it offered compared to the Interceptor with all the plates other than it was more streamlined. His Dragon Skin vest was not rated to stop any Armor Piercing rounds, the SO 2000 model. It was just as heavy as the Interceptor but without AP protection. I could only imagine how much heavier the SO 3000 AP version would weigh!
“So are we to see a return of the headlines of the $10,000 toilet seat, and the $400 ashtrays, along with the other old days of a completely fubar’d testing and procurment system?”
That never went away.
I have, on my desk, a piece of T-6 aluminum tube about four inches long, tapered on one end and flared on the other. It is nothing special, is not machined, but it cost over $2000 per Fed Log, and confirmed by the two we had to order.
All it does is spread open a shaft boot for installation.
A local machine shop will machine me a better, stronger, industrial nylon bullet tool for under 200 bucks that won’t crush when stepped on or ding when dropped. This is not unusual.
I was just watching future weapons,and the Dragon Skin seems to be the real deal.It stoped AP223 rounds from an AK and 9mm.Keep in mind the hit the vest with over 20 rounds and none went through.To top it off,the laied the vest over a frag grenade and set it off.While the front of the vest was mangled,nothing penetrated.Very impressive if you asked me,
It appears the military is has a bias about Dragon Skin, similar to the M-16, it is about time they embrace this life saving technology and invest in the welfare of our troops. The future requires that we open up the system and not continually fight progress, did you see the Discovery Channel special , 5.56 ap and 7.62 ap a close range, multiple hits…If we had the draft you can bet the public would be mandating congressional hearing on why their sons and daughters were not provided with this new technology. Maybe tomorrow Dragon Skin will be there for our troops!
Well, the US military brass and pentagon are great at making things appear to be what they are not. Ex: Development of the Bradley IFV & the STRYKER vehicle. A lot of cover-up/attempted cover-up. ALL BS!!
Do these money grubbers care about the lives of our soldiers? NO. Because their opinion of our infantry is that they are uneducated and foolish young men. All expendable. Boils my blood!!
We need to do what is best for our troops and that may ultimately be met buy combining the strength of both designs into new body armor that is superior to either current design. The trade offs of ballistic protection, body area coverage, weight, flexibility, body temperature regulation, serviceability, production capacity, and cost all need to be considered. From what I’ve read whichever way this acquisition goes there will not be a significant difference in the ballistic protection provided to our troops. In fact I don’t believe the controversy associated with this mater is really about the quality of the products but is more about the lack of objective testing, or at least the appearance of it. Unfortunately most of the responsibility for this controversy has to be assigned to those in charge of managing the evaluation; how anyone could not anticipate a company objecting to an employee of the competing company being contracted to conduct the product evaluation testing is ludicrous. There is clearly a conflict of interest which would lead any reasonable person to become concerned that there is more being considered than what is best for our troops. Having said this, I’m willing to give the program manager the benefit of the doubt until there is conclusive evidence to the contrary. It may very well be a case of a single incident of poor judgment that has come to dominate the entire project and overshadows everything that has been done correctly. However if it does turn out that the testing was not impartial and results in US troops being killed or wounded, criminal charges will likely result and there’s going to be political hell to pay.
I’ve dployed several times to the AOR with the Interceptor vest and I’ve done some reserch on the Dragon Skin and the Dragon skin seems to have better ballistic protection with out the plates and equal/better protection with the plates, while being able to withstand more hits. Now let me tell you, I like having the protection of the vest but can you imagine what it feels like wearing 20 pounds of vest in 110+ degree temps. plus the normal gear? Even if this vest is only equal to the Interceptor but lighter, thiner, more flexable I’m all for it. I would like to know one thing though, Pinnicale Armor doesn’t say on it’s web site how much it costs. They have an order form but no prices. Anyone know where I could price/purchase one?
If dragon skin is as tough as interceptor or more so it would definitely be worth the money… just for the fact that it is flexible… you know how hard it is too shoot in the prone with interceptor and plates inserts… can’t get comfortable so it becomes harder make accurate shots
I watched Future Weapons on the Discovery channel
on Monday 22, 2007. The program showed the the vest withstanding many hits from 7.62 and 5.56 steel cored bullets. The vest took the hits with no problems.
They ran a test where a dummy wearing the vest was placed on a hand grenade face down. They blow up the grenade and checked the damage. There was no damage to inside cover of the vest.
Check out the show. Lets protect our troops!
Reason Dragon skin is not standard issue is because it is more expensive and is not mass produced like the interceptor is. it is 5 times the cost but with military recruitment down maybe they should spend the extra green and protect who we got over there I plan on joining out of college and I’d rather use my own money and by Dragon skin then use the issued stuff.
Ray, in response to your post, the Dragon Skin vests are going for around $5000 dollars a unit. My brother who is a marine and member of the 1st Force Recon Co. was telling me that they will be testing these vests within the next couple of weeks. This price might just be representative of how much it will cost the military per unit, so as for civilian price, i’m not sure. Hope this helps though.
$5,000 vest or a $400,000 check to mom? If you ran the military, which would you rather pay?
I served in the 1st Gulf War. Personally Issued gear Sucks big time. I had to buy some of my own gear between 1988 and 1992. 1st issued boots from boot camp were over sized not fitting right. Gear was always breaking. When I got to FMF. Fleet Marine Force. I Bought Gore Tex Boots. My own gear was replaced with my own money all issued but brand new from army surplus store. Replaced my Kevlar with a Police Swat Kevlar looked the same but could survive a direct hit better then issue. My Gasmask broke in training and took six months for my unit to replace. Despite all my efforts. When my unit arrived into the 1st Gulf War. I was issued Dessert Uniforms that never fit because our Government bought the uniforms from the lowest bidder. I know First hand from being a combat VET. That our troops do not get what they need and what they do get is made by the lowest bidder. I was a LCPL E-3 at the time.
And yet on my pay I spent my own money to help increase my chances for survival. Think about it. It would be cheaper to buy Armor at five thousand that works then pay the 4 hundred thousand life insurance policy. The Army Generals are not the ones fighting the wars. The Generals are chicken shits! It is the enlisted and NCO’s that fight. So of course the Generals will blow smoke up the publics ass because they do not have to be the ones in a fire fight. I will end by saying our Commanding Officer recieved a silver Star for hidding in his Armored AMTRACK durring the War.
And yes he was a laughing stock of 3rdBN 1stMar Div. CAMP Pen. Our CO Commanding Officer awarded the silver star for bravery in the heat of battle and he never even left his Armor AMTRACK for fear he could be killed. Dragon Skin works. But remember in order for them to play, they must find out who to pay off. In the Marine Corps we would say It is not who you know but who you blow.
The dragon Skin body armor has been banned by the Army becuase they havent tested it yet.Sounds like a bunch of Gen. are trying to cover for whoever’s supplying the intercepter vest.Idiots! They aren’t the ones fighting and dying!
does neone know where i can order dragon skin? i’ve got till’ august when i head to iraq and i’ll b looking to buy some
i have a dragon skin vest for sale: medium size, but will be a better fit for a guy who wears a small interceptor. full torso protection, with dragon skin groin, collar and shoulder protectors. to be more bulletproof, you have to be in a humvee.
I JUST SAW THE DRAGON SKIN TESTED ON A SHOW CALLED FUTUREWEAPONS ON THE DISCOVERY CHANEL. THEY PUT OVER 30 ARMOR PEIRCING ROUNDS INTO THAT VEST AND DETONATED A GRENADE UNDERNEATH IT! NOTHING GOT THROUGH! UNBELEIVEABLE! THIS IS THE BEST VEST IV’E EVER SEEN.
My brother said that dragon skin is not allowed in his unit in Iraq. He is not reupping for that reason.
jason has a vest for sale but does not say how much or how to contact him
Down to the nut cutting. Has anyone out there worn dragon skin? Has anyone worn it for long periods of time; all day, every day, for a year? If so, what kind of carrier was it in? How did it wear? Has anyone seen any testing stats? if so, where? Has anyone been shot while wearing dragon skin? How did it perform? Were you able to get it repaired? All the conversation and venting is great, but can anyone provide more then “a friend of a friend of my cousin told my brother that….”?
I’m a contractor in Iraq and I’m looking to buy armor. Cold, hard, personnal accounts would really help here. As for price, I had to call a sales rep to get actual prices, no the order form doesn’t have it. BTW if you wear XL or above, add 26% to the cost. Yes it’s expensive, but is it worth it? Can anyone help me out here?
I would just like to comment about the state of what we are going to the field in Iraq wearing. I am an Lance Corporal in the U.S. Marine Corps. On my upcoming deployment to Iraq I will be wearing the interceptor otv not in the desert brown color, but in the old woodland camo pattern. Supply had a groin protector, but did not have the throat or shoulder protectors. I would also like to add for the benefit of those talking about the coverage of the interceptor that the shoulder, throat, and groin attachments are not rated for ballistics. That is a big deal when that is where the snipers and insurgents aim because they no the SAPI plates don’t protect there. I don’t know what the answer is. Dragon skin sounds like it could be the real deal (the Discovery Channel’s spot on the system was unbelievable), but without the research from a Pinnacle-free/Military free testing group it isn’t proven. All I know is that when I get to Iraq myself and 75-80% of the Marines in my unit will stick out like sore thumbs because of the inadequate nature of the military’s supply. I really hope SAPI plates and the interceptor are better that dragon skin, because it looks like we are going to need them to be.
Please cut thru this bullshit and give us a price and a source for basic protection and two upgrades. IF you want to sell this stuff quit concealing the price.
I read in an internet article that a complete suit of Dragon Skin armor runs for more than $5,000. This includes a protective collar, an optional weight bearing rig, optional lightweight SAPI plates, backpack plates, and an armored protective blanket. However, the basic Dragon Skin vest for torso protection alone, costs about $2,000.
Giving the vest the Stoner treatment. When Stoner was trying to get his M16 into the military, the Army fixed the test for it to fail and in military circles attempted to rip the the system to shreds. Very cruel.
Wow. Old thread but thanks for using one of my coprighted pics…Just come by our forum and search dragonskin for the article.