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	<title>Comments on: Thermobaric Foes: Explosive Threat</title>
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		<title>By: dk</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12796</link>
		<dc:creator>dk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Oct 2006 20:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12796</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Are the results of Project Albert regarding considerations of both defenders and attackers having access to these weapons available anywhere? I&#039;d be interested to read more about that but the reference link given above had been discontinued, http://www.mcwl.quantico.usmc.mil/Albert/paiw6/outbriefs/ebw.ppt&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Many thanks!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;dk&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are the results of Project Albert regarding considerations of both defenders and attackers having access to these weapons available anywhere? I&#8217;d be interested to read more about that but the reference link given above had been discontinued, <a href="http://www.mcwl.quantico.usmc.mil/Albert/paiw6/outbriefs/ebw.ppt" rel="nofollow">http://www.mcwl.quantico.usmc.mil/Albert/paiw6/outbriefs/ebw.ppt</a></p>
<p>Many thanks!</p>
<p>dk</p>
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		<title>By: David Hambling</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12795</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hambling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 15:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12795</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Pete,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No, the Europeans are worse - even the term &#039;thermobaric&#039; is beyond the pale in the UK.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Interestingly, the thermobaric SMAW-NE is a suggested replacement for the Flash M202A1, which itself replaced those old-style WWII flamethrowers. But it won&#039;t necessarily get better press.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Trying not to make war more inhumane is a tricky business.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>
Pete,</p>
<p>No, the Europeans are worse &#8211; even the term &#8216;thermobaric&#8217; is beyond the pale in the UK.</p>
<p>Interestingly, the thermobaric SMAW-NE is a suggested replacement for the Flash M202A1, which itself replaced those old-style WWII flamethrowers. But it won&#8217;t necessarily get better press.</p>
<p>Trying not to make war more inhumane is a tricky business.</p>
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		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12794</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 12:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12794</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well Thank you David. I was not aware of the classifications of these different explosives because of the hype surrounding the term &quot;fuel-air&quot; explosives. It reminds me of the hype surrounding &quot;napalm&quot; during the Vietnam Conflict.&lt;br /&gt;
As if we didn&#039;t firebomb cities and use flame-throwers during WW2.&lt;br /&gt;
Now we are hearing that WP is a horrible, brutal weapon and inhumane to boot. The politics behind this stuff can begin to get very silly. The only country that I can think of off the top of my head that engages in such platitudes is the good ol&#039; US of A.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well Thank you David. I was not aware of the classifications of these different explosives because of the hype surrounding the term &#8220;fuel-air&#8221; explosives. It reminds me of the hype surrounding &#8220;napalm&#8221; during the Vietnam Conflict.<br />
As if we didn&#8217;t firebomb cities and use flame-throwers during WW2.<br />
Now we are hearing that WP is a horrible, brutal weapon and inhumane to boot. The politics behind this stuff can begin to get very silly. The only country that I can think of off the top of my head that engages in such platitudes is the good ol&#8217; US of A.</p>
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		<title>By: David Hambling</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12793</link>
		<dc:creator>David Hambling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12793</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
Chuck,&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Terminology is difficult, as there is no fixed convention. The Russian military use the term Thermobaric indiscriminately for everything from FAE to enhanced explosives,* others take a more nuanced approach. In the US there are at least four levels defined.** Some of this is to do with politics rather than physics.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What they do have in common is that they are &#039;volumetric&#039; and the blast is distinctly different from that produced by condensed explosives. (Or would you disagree?)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I would also suggest that a true fuel-air weapon will produce detonation (ie supersonic) not deflagration.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;* &quot;The Russians use fuel-air and thermobaric interchangeably though there may be a technical distinction in the scientific community.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/fuelair/fuelair.htm&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;** &quot; There are four types of recognized enhanced-blast explosives: (1) Metallized Explosives. (2) Reactive Surround. (3) Fuel-Air. (4) Thermobaric.&quot;&lt;br /&gt;
http://das.cs.amedd.army.mil/PDF/J04_4_6.pdf&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>
Chuck,</p>
<p>Terminology is difficult, as there is no fixed convention. The Russian military use the term Thermobaric indiscriminately for everything from FAE to enhanced explosives,* others take a more nuanced approach. In the US there are at least four levels defined.** Some of this is to do with politics rather than physics.</p>
<p>What they do have in common is that they are &#8216;volumetric&#8217; and the blast is distinctly different from that produced by condensed explosives. (Or would you disagree?)</p>
<p>I would also suggest that a true fuel-air weapon will produce detonation (ie supersonic) not deflagration.</p>
</p>
<p>* &#8220;The Russians use fuel-air and thermobaric interchangeably though there may be a technical distinction in the scientific community.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/fuelair/fuelair.htm" rel="nofollow">http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/fuelair/fuelair.htm</a></p>
<p>** &#8221; There are four types of recognized enhanced-blast explosives: (1) Metallized Explosives. (2) Reactive Surround. (3) Fuel-Air. (4) Thermobaric.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://das.cs.amedd.army.mil/PDF/J04_4_6.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://das.cs.amedd.army.mil/PDF/J04_4_6.pdf</a></p>
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		<title>By: chuck</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12792</link>
		<dc:creator>chuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12792</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;While working for Popular Mechanics Russia some years ago I spoke to a lot of experts and they strongly disagree with your classification. I was told that thermobaric weapons do have virtually nothing in common with fuel-air explosives. The principles differ – while one former is detonation in dispersed accelerant, the latter is not detonation, it’s semi-instant deflagration of fuel. The famous sugar-factory bomb is FAE, not thermobaric.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While working for Popular Mechanics Russia some years ago I spoke to a lot of experts and they strongly disagree with your classification. I was told that thermobaric weapons do have virtually nothing in common with fuel-air explosives. The principles differ – while one former is detonation in dispersed accelerant, the latter is not detonation, it’s semi-instant deflagration of fuel. The famous sugar-factory bomb is FAE, not thermobaric.</p>
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		<title>By: Wembley</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12791</link>
		<dc:creator>Wembley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 02:47:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12791</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
This is a new capability - HEAT rounds are notoriously bad at causing damage after they penetrate, and being able to clear bunkers and buildings with a single shoulder-launched round changes things. If it really means that whole cities get flattened then tactics (and expectations) need to be adjusted.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In the short term, the effect on body armor and vehicles is of more concern. Sounds like thermobarics are good for &#039;asymmetric&#039; warfare against advanced opposition which is not good news.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>
This is a new capability &#8211; HEAT rounds are notoriously bad at causing damage after they penetrate, and being able to clear bunkers and buildings with a single shoulder-launched round changes things. If it really means that whole cities get flattened then tactics (and expectations) need to be adjusted.</p>
<p>In the short term, the effect on body armor and vehicles is of more concern. Sounds like thermobarics are good for &#8216;asymmetric&#8217; warfare against advanced opposition which is not good news.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12790</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12790</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Color me unimpressed. Taking out bunkers with portable rocket rounds is a capability that infantrymen have had since the invention of the bazooka. This weapon doesn&#039;t seem to have given either the Russians or the Chechens an edge, despite the fact that the Russians had it first, after which the Chechens stole it, upon which the edge is supposed to have passed on to them, since this weapon is supposed to favor defenders if both sides have it. But the Chechens aren&#039;t winning, are they? &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Even if these things are as good for the defender during infantry assaults on urban areas as this article says they are, much more destructive (of physical property) tactics will simply be employed by the attacking force. In future, artillery will flatten buildings starting from the outskirts into the interior of the cities to be taken. The defending force will not be given the opportunity to use these weapons to maximum effect.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Color me unimpressed. Taking out bunkers with portable rocket rounds is a capability that infantrymen have had since the invention of the bazooka. This weapon doesn&#8217;t seem to have given either the Russians or the Chechens an edge, despite the fact that the Russians had it first, after which the Chechens stole it, upon which the edge is supposed to have passed on to them, since this weapon is supposed to favor defenders if both sides have it. But the Chechens aren&#8217;t winning, are they? </p>
<p>Even if these things are as good for the defender during infantry assaults on urban areas as this article says they are, much more destructive (of physical property) tactics will simply be employed by the attacking force. In future, artillery will flatten buildings starting from the outskirts into the interior of the cities to be taken. The defending force will not be given the opportunity to use these weapons to maximum effect.</p>
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		<title>By: Dar</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12789</link>
		<dc:creator>Dar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12789</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Pete--From what I&#039;ve read (and I&#039;m a civilian) of urban combat, the defender should not start defending the town from the outermost buildings and expose himself to direct fire from the attacker&#039;s supporting elements.  It&#039;s better to be somewhat inside the town to prevent this, and booby-trap/mine those exposed buildings which the attacker will be forced to occupy (or he&#039;ll be exposed in the streets).  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think this would result in the situation where both attacker and defender are occupying the buildings, and since the defender does not (or, at least, should not) advertise his positions, the defender will often get the first shot.  The defender is not just defending the town as a whole, but choosing which individual buildings to occupy and which to sacrifice.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The attacker will likely not have the ammo nor the desire to flatten every building, and to be effective they must close with the defender, meaning they must seek cover to do so--and cover in urban combat typically means a structure.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Again, I&#039;m a civilian and this is just my speculation, but I think the attacker will be likely to occupy buildings just as frequently as the defender, but the defender has the advantage of spotting and firing on the attacker first.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete&#8211;From what I&#8217;ve read (and I&#8217;m a civilian) of urban combat, the defender should not start defending the town from the outermost buildings and expose himself to direct fire from the attacker&#8217;s supporting elements.  It&#8217;s better to be somewhat inside the town to prevent this, and booby-trap/mine those exposed buildings which the attacker will be forced to occupy (or he&#8217;ll be exposed in the streets).  </p>
<p>I think this would result in the situation where both attacker and defender are occupying the buildings, and since the defender does not (or, at least, should not) advertise his positions, the defender will often get the first shot.  The defender is not just defending the town as a whole, but choosing which individual buildings to occupy and which to sacrifice.</p>
<p>The attacker will likely not have the ammo nor the desire to flatten every building, and to be effective they must close with the defender, meaning they must seek cover to do so&#8211;and cover in urban combat typically means a structure.</p>
<p>Again, I&#8217;m a civilian and this is just my speculation, but I think the attacker will be likely to occupy buildings just as frequently as the defender, but the defender has the advantage of spotting and firing on the attacker first.</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher Karel</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12788</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher Karel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12788</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Pete, &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;  I was as surprised as you to see those results.  One would instinctively think that those inside buildings would be at higher risk from overpressure, as well as collapsing structures.  Likewise, I would imagine someone in an armored vehicle, even if not &#039;buttoned up&#039;, would be much better protected.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;  Looking at the conclusion power point presentation, it looks like the test scenario was a little different than I had imagined.  It would appear as though both the defenders and attackers had multiple teams, in multiple buildings.  Combat could easily have been between neighboring houses, or inside the same structure.  This is a bit of a contrast to the last Thermobaric article,  which covered insurgents holed up in a small house turned into a makeshift bunker.  It&#039;s quite possible that the advantage that portable thermobarics gives a defender is quite dependent on the type of environment?  It may not be the end of the world if Iraqi insurgents start using these, but could be quite a problem if two standing armies butted heads with them.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;br /&gt;
--Christopher Karel&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pete, </p>
<p>  I was as surprised as you to see those results.  One would instinctively think that those inside buildings would be at higher risk from overpressure, as well as collapsing structures.  Likewise, I would imagine someone in an armored vehicle, even if not &#8216;buttoned up&#8217;, would be much better protected.</p>
<p>  Looking at the conclusion power point presentation, it looks like the test scenario was a little different than I had imagined.  It would appear as though both the defenders and attackers had multiple teams, in multiple buildings.  Combat could easily have been between neighboring houses, or inside the same structure.  This is a bit of a contrast to the last Thermobaric article,  which covered insurgents holed up in a small house turned into a makeshift bunker.  It&#8217;s quite possible that the advantage that portable thermobarics gives a defender is quite dependent on the type of environment?  It may not be the end of the world if Iraqi insurgents start using these, but could be quite a problem if two standing armies butted heads with them.</p>
<p>
&#8211;Christopher Karel</p>
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		<title>By: pete</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/1969.html/comment-page-1#comment-12787</link>
		<dc:creator>pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:10:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=1969#comment-12787</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;WOW! &lt;br /&gt;
I would have thought that the defenders in a given urban scenario would be at a disadvantage because of the fact that they would likely be inside buildings where the overpressure effects of the weapon would be more effective.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WOW! <br />
I would have thought that the defenders in a given urban scenario would be at a disadvantage because of the fact that they would likely be inside buildings where the overpressure effects of the weapon would be more effective.</p>
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