When the latest body armor flap broke ten days ago, several commenters here talked up the Dragon Skin protective system as a better alternative. Now, Soldiers for the Truth — the group which ignited the current armor debate — is passing on reports from two deploying GIs that “their commander told them if they were wearing Pinnacle Dragon Skin and were killed their beneficiaries might not receive the death benefits from their $400,000 SGLI life insurance policies.”
According to Defense Review — which has been tracking Pinnacle’s gear for a while — the Skin is basically your standard body armor, laced with silver-dollar sized ceramic discs. These are configured over the vest like scales (hence the “Dragon” sobriquet).
Some folks say the Skin is at least as tough as standard-issue armor, and it’s flexible, too — which should make it more comfortable. But, if I’m reading right, the basic Dragon Skin vest weighs about 8 lbs. more than the Interceptor OTV armor that soldiers generally wear now. That extra weight, I’m guessing, is the reason why one commander tried to spook his men out of their Skin. And I have a feeling this is just one commander’s words — not some Pentagon-wide directive, as SFTT implies. We’ll see.
I don’t think so. The Interceptor weights 16.4 lbs last time I checked, and the SOV weighs a maximum of 18.5 lbs. A small weight increase (probably because there are sections of the scales that overlap and are thus double thickness, whereas a SAPI plate has even thickness everywhere), but I would imagine the flexibility would make up for it.
The Interceptor weights ~8.4 lbs without the ceramic plates in the front and back. Each plate weights ~4 lbs.
Also ignored is the fact that Dragon Scale armor provides much better coverage than the plates used. Everyone complains now about the poor side and shoulder protection, while pinnacle armor has been selling full torso Class III armor, not limited area inserts. More likely someone that is not getting rich enough off of DOD contracts and interceptor amror is probably behind this.
It’s not all pure weight, either. There’s also distribution. Anyone who has worn a good modern backpack vs. an older model knows how much difference that can make. Body armor is no different.
I’ll note here that Pinnacle’s Dragon Skin SOV armor’s flexibility helps with weight distribution, and also has better stopping power to go with its better coverage. Some really impressive tests, especially against multiple hits in a small area. Full ceramic plate inserts like the OTV’s can crack or even shatter under those conditions.
I’ll also note that Dragon skin armor is [a] about $5,000 per rather than $1,100 per for Interceptor; and [b] has a design that relies on integrated manufacturing, rather than being able to split the vest and plates and assemble them/ swap them/ replace them in the field. A. has effects on overall cost (multiply by about 500,000), while B. affects how fast production can be scaled up.
Recall the “porn inserts” comment in another post, Noah… is it better to issue a smaller number of the best vests to fewer troops, or issue “pretty good” protection to everyone fast?
That has been part of the dilemma here.
I’m actually working on a “bring it all together” post covering this topic. Noah, if you could nail down the relative weight issue of Interceptor OTV with standard SAPI plate inserts (i.e. not the shoulder & side inserts) vs. comparable Dragon Scale SOV (and then with standard ESAPI plates), I’d be much obliged.
SGLI pays REGARDLESS OF CAUSE OF DEATH. Suicide, murder, war, motorcycle racing…
Any commander who says otherwise is a liar or an incompetent.
I’ve actually worn the interceptor vest in my tour of Iraq and found rediculously cumbersome. I weigh about 165(& stand about 5′11″) and with that armor on I had to suck my gut just to get in and out of our Humvee. On top of that our Scouts reported that after 1-2 hits their SAPI plates were rendered useless. And if you fell on them dodging indirect fire?
I went to the Pinnacle web site and read up on the item, as well as watched the video. I have to say that I hate any demonstration video that has cuts in it, but if the body armor performs that well after so many hits, and has flexibility to boot, then I’m sold.
My only complaint is where is all the so called negative feedback? I haven’t seen any documentation (other than the weight and price complaints). This is also a serious issue. If there doesn’t seem to have anything wrong with it, that does not mean that there isn’t. If I were producing armor I would approach any item with the mindset that there is a hidden flaw waiting to be exploited and not just say ‘Hey, look at this isn’t it great?’.
A standard IBA with two plates weighs 16.4 lbs, but with the shoulder coverage, side plates, and the “new” sapi plates that go in front and back weighs about 32 pounds. So I think the that with full coverage besides the shoulder pads that the SOV Dragon Skin will be well worth it. And as far as the price goes I would think that the goverment would rather spend the 4+ grand on a vest that will save lives, then spend the 400,000 on the life insurance for each soldier that dies.
I was in Iraq for over ten months with an IBA and that thing is pitiful in all respects. A number of my friends iether died or were severely injured while wearing that useless thing. I actually weighed mine while there and it weighed over 40lbs. with both sapi plates and no shoulder pads or groin pads. This was the weight without my ammo and water atached to it and of course it’s non-flexible and almost if not more than 2 inches thick. Most people will tell you horror stories about trying to fit in small places wearing that peice of garbage.
I shot a sapi plate 8 times at 20 meters with a smith and wesson 500. It’s a 50 cal. Not a singe round penetrated the Plate even on glancing shots to the side of it. At most it would penetrate the carbon like layer. Then peirce through 2 very thin weavings of either kevlar or nylon. The plate is a good system but it needs to get thinner and lighter.
give me a split screen demo of intersepter & dragon skin in action then well talk, i dont know about you but my life is worth a $5000 investment
Say you’re driving along on Active duty but you are assign light treat duty but a you are driving a bomb or a group of insergents ambush you. Do you have time to add your extra plating no! I put my money on dragon skin
Todays body armor in use is completely a joke. Albeit, I am not a soldier, have never been a soldier, and WILL NEVER be a soldier. I am not a violent individual whatsoever. With that in mind you can imagine the horror I go through everytime I watch the news and see more people killed.(regardless of who they are) I run a composite business that deals with carbon fiber, kevlar, and other ground-breaking polymers and composite fabrics. I have my pieces waterjet cut as does the military. My waterjet cutting shop cuts pallet’s of dyneema daily.
They showed me a small piece used for testing by the military, It had FMJ AK47 Slugs shot from apx 15 ft., they only penetrated one quarter of the material – 1/2 inch thick, only went through 1/8th of an inch. It also had a Tungsten-tipped armor piercing .50 cal sniper rifle round that stopped 1/3 of the way through it with 2/3rds still intact. The piece stays together throughout the firing (about one sq. ft had 8-21 shells still in the material.) They gave me a small piece worth about $400 and said have fun. I took the piece to Sunny New Mexico where american’s still have freedoms, one of which is owning and legally shooting an AK-47. I took out a 40Cal Handgun with god knows what kind of shells. (It was a friend of a family member’s gun) I also shot the living heck out of it with an ak-47 POINT BLANK. I actually shot the corner once. The slug mushroomed out and lodged in the plastic dyneema only going through about 1/4 of the material. IT IS AMAZING MATERIAL AND IT TAKES ALOT TO IMPRESS ME WITH PHYSICAL PROPERTIES.
Honest to god I had even considered HOLDING THE PIECE IN MY BARE HANDS AND HAVING MY FRIEND SHOOT IT. (He’s a good shot but still I’m no fool) but the material works SO WELL I would feel safe with ONLY THAT MATERIAL TO PROTECT ME.
I also made me own (Nasa-quality procedures) ballistic kevlar panels 14layers(1/4 inch) and 28 layers thick(1/2 Inch) and shot them with .22’s and the AK-47. I actually took notes of grain weight,etc. but I’m not at home right now.
These panels made of Dyneema could SUBSTANTIALLY reduce casualties and/or injuries. You could even take a .50 cal round, try to stand back up and fire like the dickens back at the oppressing force.
The first thing I said after verifying the strength with my own strict guidelines and seeing it with my own eye’s was “I would so fly over a war zone with this protecting me”
In theory it should work even better than the a-10 warthog Titanium cockpit tub.
Ohh yeah and the military is going to be using this stuff, but it panicks me inside because I don’t know when, but I know this stuff far exceeds steel plating 3-inches thick or greater.
If the military see’s this. I can help. contact me, also if you have any question’s maybe I can help.
dustin.still@unhook.net
What no one is talking a about is Dragon Scale’s ablity to reduce blunt force for rounds take don’t get through. My father was a police-man when light body armor was invented. He was shot twice, vest worked both times, but blunt force wounds the size of dinner plates where he was shot. Dragon Scale’s design transfers blunt shock across the whole vest, making it more possible to get back in the fight.
I heard a rumor that there is dragonskin boots. Can anyone confirm this? Can you bring your own body armour to Iraq? I have heard yes and no.
Did any one see Future Weapons on the discovery chanel? They were testing the dragon scale armor. The host shot about 30 rounds of 5.56, 7.62, and 9mm rounds into the vest. Not one thing went through. Then they took the same vest, with dummy in it, and laid it ontop of a live grenade. Then the detonated the grenade. Now the vest was destroyed, but no kidding, it took the blast. No shrapnel penitrated it. You can bet on my next tour I’ll be wearing dragon scale armor.
I’ve heard mixed things about Dragon Skin from the guys that I know who’ve tried it out. About half think the flexibility and side protection is great. The other half hates how it limits their mobility through tight spaces. I don’t know how this opinion would be affected now that they’re being forced to wear the side-plates when going out… They also say “[the extra flexibility] doesn’t matter either when there’s 20 pouches attached to it”.
My buddy in 10th Mountain found about the same thing as SPC.Brooks with the latest Interceptor system plates they had. The only difference was a single plate took 5 direct hits from an M82/M107 before being useless.
Also, how much weight difference would there be between the full Interceptor system we use now (body, side plates, neck, throat, shoulder pads, crotch, underarm) and a Dragon Skin system covering all those areas? I’ve only ever seen stats for just the Dragon Skin vest.