After a few soldiers started wearing Dragon Skin body armor, the much-hyped alternative to the standard Interceptor defenses, the Army banned the flexible armor — and allegedly threatened to cut off the life insurance policies of anyone wearing it. Then, the Army took a different tack, saying it would start testing the Skin, to see if it was up to snuff.
Now, one of the officers in charge of those tests is publicly dissing the Dragon armor, Jane’s Nathan Hodge reports.
In comments posted on an online discussion forum, Karl Masters, director of engineering for Program Manager – Soldier Equipment, said he recently supervised tests of Dragon Skin, a vest made by California-based Pinnacle Armor.
“I was recently tasked by the army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV 3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E [tests and evaluation],” Masters wrote in a 6 June posting. “My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. I’m under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain.
“I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV 3000 Dragon Skin – don’t.”
Masters added that he would not recommend the vest, particularly given the threat from 7.62 x 54R armor-piercing rounds.
“I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents,” he added…
Pinnacle officials have consistently maintained Dragon Skin passed the tests that were conducted in May, and said army officials agreed to continue tests at a later date. They say they are awaiting word from the army on the resumption of testing…
After repeated inquiries, an army public affairs official referred Jane’s to Pinnacle for more information on the results of testing. Lieutenant Colonel William Wiggins, an army spokesman, said the safety of use memorandum regarding Dragon Skin is still in force.
“As our research community comes up with new products, we’ll field them,” Col Wiggins said. “You can be assured that we field the best body armour in the world.”
Whether or not Dragon Skin sucks, this procurement officer was WAY in the wrong to post his personal (and perhaps, biased) opinions on a “public” site. This constitutes, at best, a mjoar lapse in professional ethics or, at worst, a violation of federal acquisition laws.
So his day job is selling Interceptor and they put him in charge of testing Dragonskin? When Pinnacle’s biggest complaint was they were not being judged fairly because of vested interests??
This one isn’t over yet.
Right off I’d throw out the whole test due to Karl Masters comments and the fact he works for the competition…pffft. what a crock of S#1T.
I’d love to see independant test(s)done. IT would be awesome for Pinnacle to take some over to Iraq and let the troops shoot up a few. I guess that would be the best test.
If the armor is superior to the Interceptor OTV I’d like to see all those involved fired and to go as far as imprisonment for passing on inferior armor to our troops.
I do believe that the latest round of tests were conducted at H.P. White, an independent lab.
“Masters added that he would not recommend the vest, particularly given the threat from 7.62 x 54R armor-piercing rounds.”
What type of 7.62 x 54R mm is he refering to maybe the 187 GR, steel case, armor piercing incendiary BS40 one that is a Type V if so and i dont know why the army tested such a bullet in a type “IV” SOV 3000 …..but i want to see the Interceptor vest pass that test also lollll
As stated by Punisher and the rest, you cannot take this guy’s comments seriously as there is severe bias due to his “day job” as the product manager for the competition. I’m honestly suprised this was even posted.
As it happens, I live in the CA city where the Dragon Skin armor is made. I’ve seen live fire tests, and can categorically state the author is full of sh**. The armor works, and his comments have to be politically or financially motivated as he’s way, way off base.
Amazing. Haven’t they heard of ‘Conflict of Interest’ over there? If I was the President/CEO of Pinnacle I’d be screaming bloody murder.
We should just let the grunts choose. Yeah, it might be a rough patch starting out but I bet eventually the dudes on the ground will be able to figure out which system offers the best protection/comfort.
The army was right to cut off their insurance. The soldiers are putting themselves at risk and the army would have to pay if they die.
As a soldier your body is a weapon of the military, it belongs to them, not to you. This is not a new concept.
I have seen the test done on the discovery channel and a few others, sounds to me like somebody dont like the competition, and is throwing the mud at pinnacle, the good ole boy system at its best
THE TEST CONDUCTED ON THE DICOVERY CHANNEL INCLUDED 7.62X39 A.P. ROUNDS IMPORTED FROM IRAQ. AS I REMEMBER THEY FIRED 20 ROUNDS AT CLOSE RANGE WITH NO PENETRATION. THE BEST IDEA FOR PINNACLE IS GIVE DRAGON SKIN SYSTEMS TO THE IRAQ FORCES AND LET FIELD TESTING EMBARRASS OUR MILITARY BRASS INTO A CHANGE OF POLICY
I think the comments are outlandish. Everyone knows the IBA is not the best armor in the world, that is why special forces where the SPEAR BALCS armor, which provides better coverage mobility and is actually rated to stop projectiles by the National Institute of Justice. The Safety of Use message, basically prevents all Army soldiers in USASOC from being able to wear their issue armor.
Also while the IBA may offer good protection, its horrible front open design doesn’t place the plate over the vital area. Most people notice plate sag issues. Furthermore it makes it difficult for soldiers to seat the buttstock of their weapon in thier shoulder, neccessary to quickly put down the enemy. I think the Army should field its SPEAR BALCS armor across the force as it is obviously a better armor system.
The following video was aired on The History Channel on 10/6/06.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7598767169430383501&hl=en
Very impressive video of a Dragon Skin test. The first part is conducted by two officers fron the Fresno, CA, Special Weapons and Tactics team, consisting of 20 rounds of armor-piercing steel jacketed 7.62 rounds followed by more than 120 9mm rounds from an MP5 to the same vest… without penetration. The second part of the test shows a home-made IED–with some nasty looking custom made shrapnel–being fired 3 times, from 3 different angles, at a human body form. The form is, quite naturally, decimated. The test is repeated with the same IED and teh same shrapnel, only this time a Dragon Skin vest is placed over the body form. The result? Zero penetration.
Keep in mind, this set of tests was set up and paid for by Pinnacle, but it does thoroughly exemplify the effectiveness of the armor. I believe a completely independant test needs to be conducted by an unrelated 3rd party, showing side-by-side comparisons between the Dragon Skin and military-issued armor.
Phillip, you’re a retard.
Do a little research before opening your trap.
“THE TEST CONDUCTED ON THE DICOVERY CHANNEL INCLUDED 7.62X39 A.P. ROUNDS IMPORTED FROM IRAQ. AS I REMEMBER THEY FIRED 20 ROUNDS AT CLOSE RANGE WITH NO PENETRATION. THE BEST IDEA FOR PINNACLE IS GIVE DRAGON SKIN SYSTEMS TO THE IRAQ FORCES AND LET FIELD TESTING EMBARRASS OUR MILITARY BRASS INTO A CHANGE OF POLICY” – thx0717
What the hell is the matter with you? You’d have Pinnacle send their Dragon Skin armor to Iraqis and endanger the lives of our soldiers? I agree that there needs to be a “change of policy” but to risk the lives of the people who’re supposed to be wearing the armor defeats the purpose of the armor in the first place.
“What the hell is the matter with you? You’d have Pinnacle send their Dragon Skin armor to Iraqis and endanger the lives of our soldiers? I agree that there needs to be a “change of policy” but to risk the lives of the people who’re supposed to be wearing the armor defeats the purpose of the armor in the first place.”
Iraqi Forces, genius. Not the insurgency.
I have recently viewed a Discover Channel show that tested the Dragon Skin Body Armor. I was nonetheless impressed. I am a soldier currently serving in the Armed Forces. My son is 3 years away from serving if he chooses. If this armor is as good as they say, the powers that be are committing in my opinion, a mortal sin against the soldier on the battlefield. I understand cost analysis, procurement problems and the like. But in 21 years of service I have seen my fair share of fraud, waste and abuse. Bottom line, if this is better use it! I would like to see some unbiased testing of this armor and make my decision from there. But overall lets do it now, not on a timeline that is unrealistic.
Why is an employee of a competitor doing the testing?
IM CURRENTLY IN THE MILITARY. UNCLE SAM HAS NEVER DONE ANY TESTING FAIR. WHEN THE M-16 WAS INTRODUCED ARMY BRASS DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO DISCREDIT THE WEAPON. IT WAS THEN SOLD TO JUST ABOUT EVERYONE. WHEN THE FIRST SOLDIERS IN VIETNAM CAME ACROSS VIETNAMESE SOLDIERS USING THEM AND REALISED THAT THE WEAPON WAS FAR SUPERIOR TO THE STANDARD ISSUE M-14 THE TOP BRASS WAS PRESSURED INTO UPDATING AN OUTDATED WEAPON. THE SAME WOULD HAVE TO BE SAID ABOUT DRAGON SKIN. THE BRASS DOES NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT SAFETY. THEY ARE MORE CONCERNED WITH PUTTING MORE TROOPS ON THE FRONT LINE OR HOW MUCH MONEY IT WOULD SAVE. I WAS IN IRAQ FROM 2003 TO 2004 AND THERE WERE STILL PERSONNEL OUT THERE WITHOUT ANY BULLET RESISTANT BODY ARMOR. AND I’M SURE THERE ARE STILL SOME TODAY. MORE AND MORE FUNDS ARE WASTED IN THE ARMED FORCES ON DESIGNING NEW UNIFORMS OR OUTLANDISH BANQUETS FOR SOME TOP BRASS VISIT OR DINNER. WE WERE ACTUALLY RUNNING OUT OF AMMO WHEN WE WERE THERE. SOLDIERS FROM ANOTHER UNIT GOT THEIR BODY ARMOR SENT TO THEM WITHOUT THE RIFLE PLATES.SO IF THIS DRAGON SKIN IS BETTER UNCLE SAM NEEDS TO DIG INTO HIS POCKETS AND OUTFIT EVERY LAST MILITARY MEMBER WITH A MUCH SUPERIOR BODY ARMOR AGAINST OUR ENEMIES
quote:”I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents,” Master
This was said tongue in cheek, he was implying that it’s so unsafe that the insurgents would die with it on.
That’s off topic though, the US Armed Services have an obligation to our troops and the public to keep our men and women safe. If it’s good then scrap what we’re using and go with it!
Im wondering how the armour handles an angle shot? If a person were laying down and shotat the right angle…how easily can a bullit slip between the plates like lifting up a fish scale and slide right by? I imagine a solid plate would easily reflect such a shot like a stone off water surface… but the scale design may fail. Given the fact that your more likely to be ducking or laying down while being shot at than standing in an upright position this could really be an issue
im a memeber of the united states marine corps, and i have to say that the body armor we are currently issued cannot stand up to the job we need it to do. we have just recently been issued new sapi plates said to withstand 7.62mm armor peircing rounds. they are almost an inch thick, hindering mobility and movement. not to mention it is clearly marked “fragile – handle with care”. how can i expect it to stop multiple rounds from an assault rifle when it will break just by being dropped?
Yeah … I do believe i’d quicker place my trust in a former U.S. Navy Seal like Mack Machowiczs (Who TOOK PART in a demonstration/test of Dragon Skin for himself) LONG before i’d put any stock in the words of an employee of a marketing competitor. Machowiczs himself rigged the Dragnoskin Armor directly on top of a fragmentation grenade and the vest recieved absolutely NO penetration! (This might address some concern from an earlier post about the angle of impact to the Dragonskin armor.)
Is the Dragon Skin Body armour available for purchase
I suppose the angle thing would only be an issue if you were laying down and getting shot at from behind (friendly fire?) or if the shot was somehow coming from underneith you (thru a floor?) Does anyone know of a police service that has started testing it to see what theyve found out?
I tried opening up http://www.pinnaclearmor.com but the sight is down, weird. I did find a really good explanation of whats going on at answers.com http://www.answers.com/topic/dragon-skin-body-armor
Although its not used for troops, it appears to be fine for these guys:
“Dragon Skin” is a kind of body armor made by Pinnacle Armor and worn by personnel expected to be in high-threat situations. Individual users include the U.S. Secret Service Presidential Protection detail, CIA, NSA, United States Department of Energy officials in Iraq, some journalists and contractors in Iraq, U.S. Air Force, some Special Ops forces, some police departments and SWAT teams, and nine U.S. Generals in the field (as of Jan 2006).
Its ok for Generals, but not for the grunts. I guess this war on terror is expensive
I cannot belive that the intrests of moneymakeing corporations and their pawns are put before our soldiers safety. This is outrageous!!!
“My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor…”
Surprise!! Surprise!!
He is the Product Manager for the Vest that would be replaced if Dragon Skin tested well…and he says Dragon Skin sucks…
NONE of the guys making decisions for the soldiers in the field are IN THE FIELD!
What the hell is wrong with our country? Have your competitor evaluate & report to see if they should be replaced.
I wish me & my buddies could be the judge in our own trials…it has become the American way!