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	<title>Comments on: Nork Test: No Big Whoop?</title>
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		<title>By: Bernard</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/2850.html/comment-page-1#comment-20645</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:33:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=2850#comment-20645</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As a nyekulturnii, and assuming they only got 200 t (the latest I have heard) or so, perhaps there are the following broadly logical possibilities:&lt;br /&gt;
1)It was a basic 20 kt Pu device that went sour, or more like the late 40s stuff, which is a bit trickier.&lt;br /&gt;
2)They are trying to miniaturize (minimum imploder, reflector) it to get it  in a warhead and didn&#039;t get it quite right.  That might not be to hard to fix.&lt;br /&gt;
3)They are trying to minimize Pu cause they ain&#039;t got much and they shaved it a little too fine.&lt;br /&gt;
4)It is a thermo trigger, so was pretty small and they didn&#039;t quite get it right  (but close?)&lt;br /&gt;
5)That some of their Pu has too much 240 and they decided to use it up this way.&lt;br /&gt;
Some reports have the intended yield at 4 kt -- which may be compatible with 2, 3, or 4.&lt;br /&gt;
Anybody know if this makes sense?&lt;br /&gt;
Bernard&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a nyekulturnii, and assuming they only got 200 t (the latest I have heard) or so, perhaps there are the following broadly logical possibilities:<br />
1)It was a basic 20 kt Pu device that went sour, or more like the late 40s stuff, which is a bit trickier.<br />
2)They are trying to miniaturize (minimum imploder, reflector) it to get it  in a warhead and didn&#8217;t get it quite right.  That might not be to hard to fix.<br />
3)They are trying to minimize Pu cause they ain&#8217;t got much and they shaved it a little too fine.<br />
4)It is a thermo trigger, so was pretty small and they didn&#8217;t quite get it right  (but close?)<br />
5)That some of their Pu has too much 240 and they decided to use it up this way.<br />
Some reports have the intended yield at 4 kt &#8212; which may be compatible with 2, 3, or 4.<br />
Anybody know if this makes sense?<br />
Bernard</p>
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		<title>By: Robot.Economist</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/2850.html/comment-page-1#comment-20644</link>
		<dc:creator>Robot.Economist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 14:15:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=2850#comment-20644</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It is typical for a partisan rag like the Weekly Standard to argue the threat upward.  The triggers (or primaries) to a Teller-Ulam thermonuclear generally need to be a few kilotons to produce the kind of pressure needed to set off a secondary.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The potential for a really low yield test is also relatively small.  Regardless of how much Pu-239 one uses for a fission bomb, it ultimately has to be compressed into a critical mass.  If you decrease the initial mass of Pu-239, you have to increase the amount of force compressing the pit.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Neither scenario is complete impossible, but seems highly unlikely in context.  Getting a sub-kiloton yield on a pre-announced test just leaves too much ambiguity as to technical capabilities.  I think it would be safer to chalk this one up to failure, but remain suspicious.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I honestly wouldn&#039;t put too much stock into the Norks transfering their nukes to anyone, especially (*gasp*) terrorists.  No states have transfered nuclear weapons since 1945 because they are just too much a liability in another person&#039;s hands.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is typical for a partisan rag like the Weekly Standard to argue the threat upward.  The triggers (or primaries) to a Teller-Ulam thermonuclear generally need to be a few kilotons to produce the kind of pressure needed to set off a secondary.</p>
<p>The potential for a really low yield test is also relatively small.  Regardless of how much Pu-239 one uses for a fission bomb, it ultimately has to be compressed into a critical mass.  If you decrease the initial mass of Pu-239, you have to increase the amount of force compressing the pit.</p>
<p>Neither scenario is complete impossible, but seems highly unlikely in context.  Getting a sub-kiloton yield on a pre-announced test just leaves too much ambiguity as to technical capabilities.  I think it would be safer to chalk this one up to failure, but remain suspicious.</p>
<p>I honestly wouldn&#8217;t put too much stock into the Norks transfering their nukes to anyone, especially (*gasp*) terrorists.  No states have transfered nuclear weapons since 1945 because they are just too much a liability in another person&#8217;s hands.</p>
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		<title>By: iCowboy</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/2850.html/comment-page-1#comment-20643</link>
		<dc:creator>iCowboy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=2850#comment-20643</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Neil wrote:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&#039;The percentage of optimal isotope for a decent bomb is lots higher than the percentage for fuel, but I&#039;m more familiar with the older case of U235/U238.&#039;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The plutonium would almost certainly have come from the 50MWe Yongbyon  reactor which is a copy of the British Magnox reactors of the 1950s. It is probably a copy of the first large reactor at Calder Hall, the plans of which were declassified a long time ago. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The Magnox stations allow on-line refuelling which not only boosts their up-time, but allows fuel elements to be irradiated for relatively short periods of time; ensuring that there is relatively little Pu240 in the recovered nuclear fuel which spits out neutrons and ups the critical mass.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The alternative is that NK has got a uranium cascade up and working which could spin uranium up to bomb grade. Technically that is more complicated than separating plutonium from uranium which is relatively straightforward - especially now that the Purex process has been declassified for many years now.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;A cannon-style Little Boy bomb is possible, but only if NK has made bomb grade U235. Whilst a  plutonium cannon is theoretically possib, it requires some insane muzzle velocities to overcome the risk of predetonation from stray neutrons coming out of Pu240. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The second drawback is that a cannon needs more than a critical mass of material; if NK has as little fissile material as we suspect, than a uranium cannon seems very wasteful; it&#039;d be better spent putting a subcritical mass into an implosion device. Only two countries have ever built them - the US with Little Boy and South Africa which &#039;needed&#039; a number of bombs in a hurry.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What makes me suspect that it is an implosion bomb is that it didn&#039;t work. The uranium cannon, whilst terribly inefficient, is a dead cert. Fire it and you end up with more than a critical mass - after that Dr. Einstein is in control and you end up with 12 kT.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Here? Hmmm it looks like a case of predetonation in an implosion bomb. We should know the fissile material fairly soon now that the US is reporting that it has found fission products in atmospheric samples.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil wrote:</p>
<p>&#8216;The percentage of optimal isotope for a decent bomb is lots higher than the percentage for fuel, but I&#8217;m more familiar with the older case of U235/U238.&#8217;</p>
<p>The plutonium would almost certainly have come from the 50MWe Yongbyon  reactor which is a copy of the British Magnox reactors of the 1950s. It is probably a copy of the first large reactor at Calder Hall, the plans of which were declassified a long time ago. </p>
<p>The Magnox stations allow on-line refuelling which not only boosts their up-time, but allows fuel elements to be irradiated for relatively short periods of time; ensuring that there is relatively little Pu240 in the recovered nuclear fuel which spits out neutrons and ups the critical mass.</p>
<p>The alternative is that NK has got a uranium cascade up and working which could spin uranium up to bomb grade. Technically that is more complicated than separating plutonium from uranium which is relatively straightforward &#8211; especially now that the Purex process has been declassified for many years now.</p>
<p>A cannon-style Little Boy bomb is possible, but only if NK has made bomb grade U235. Whilst a  plutonium cannon is theoretically possib, it requires some insane muzzle velocities to overcome the risk of predetonation from stray neutrons coming out of Pu240. </p>
<p>The second drawback is that a cannon needs more than a critical mass of material; if NK has as little fissile material as we suspect, than a uranium cannon seems very wasteful; it&#8217;d be better spent putting a subcritical mass into an implosion device. Only two countries have ever built them &#8211; the US with Little Boy and South Africa which &#8216;needed&#8217; a number of bombs in a hurry.</p>
<p>What makes me suspect that it is an implosion bomb is that it didn&#8217;t work. The uranium cannon, whilst terribly inefficient, is a dead cert. Fire it and you end up with more than a critical mass &#8211; after that Dr. Einstein is in control and you end up with 12 kT.</p>
<p>Here? Hmmm it looks like a case of predetonation in an implosion bomb. We should know the fissile material fairly soon now that the US is reporting that it has found fission products in atmospheric samples.</p>
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		<title>By: Mycroft</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/2850.html/comment-page-1#comment-20642</link>
		<dc:creator>Mycroft</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 22:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=2850#comment-20642</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;To suggest that the Norks were trying to test a low-yield, possibly muffled bomb ignores the political context of the situation. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They wanted to prove they had nukes. They wanted to make it inescapably clear. They&#039;ve only been blustering and threatening about them since I was in middle school (am now in graduate school). That they couldn&#039;t even manage a kiloton of yield suggests strongly that their technical capabilities are not up to par. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;They may be able to manage it next time -- but I think the results of this test are not nearly as ugly to us as it might have been if they&#039;d been successful. It doesn&#039;t look good that we didn&#039;t do a single worthwhile thing to stop them, but we get another chance nonetheless. &lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To suggest that the Norks were trying to test a low-yield, possibly muffled bomb ignores the political context of the situation. </p>
<p>They wanted to prove they had nukes. They wanted to make it inescapably clear. They&#8217;ve only been blustering and threatening about them since I was in middle school (am now in graduate school). That they couldn&#8217;t even manage a kiloton of yield suggests strongly that their technical capabilities are not up to par. </p>
<p>They may be able to manage it next time &#8212; but I think the results of this test are not nearly as ugly to us as it might have been if they&#8217;d been successful. It doesn&#8217;t look good that we didn&#8217;t do a single worthwhile thing to stop them, but we get another chance nonetheless. </p>
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		<title>By: Sarge</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/2850.html/comment-page-1#comment-20641</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=2850#comment-20641</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I am sorry, but I just no longer trust any intelligence facts released by this President&lt;br /&gt;
or his Administration. They squandered their &lt;br /&gt;
credibility with America long ago......&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry, but I just no longer trust any intelligence facts released by this President<br />
or his Administration. They squandered their <br />
credibility with America long ago&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://www.noahshachtman.com/blog/archives/2850.html/comment-page-1#comment-20640</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Oct 2006 10:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.noahshachtman.com/wordpress/?p=2850#comment-20640</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I wouldn&#039;t think getting enough Pu out of old fuel rods is that easy, as implied here. The percentage of optimal isotope for a decent bomb is lots higher than the percentage for fuel, but I&#039;m more familiar with the older case of U235/U238. What about all those centrifuge cycles they keep talking about in the case of Iran? (Well, that&#039;s UF6, no?) Also, that issue is just as important as implosion efficiency (plus, the Norks could have tried the old &quot;gun&quot; two-chunk approach, as for &quot;Little Boy&quot;?) Remember than even a big cheesy low-yield bomb would cause lots of trouble, say in a boat. In any case, Ill-boy is even more rone-ry than before...&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wouldn&#8217;t think getting enough Pu out of old fuel rods is that easy, as implied here. The percentage of optimal isotope for a decent bomb is lots higher than the percentage for fuel, but I&#8217;m more familiar with the older case of U235/U238. What about all those centrifuge cycles they keep talking about in the case of Iran? (Well, that&#8217;s UF6, no?) Also, that issue is just as important as implosion efficiency (plus, the Norks could have tried the old &#8220;gun&#8221; two-chunk approach, as for &#8220;Little Boy&#8221;?) Remember than even a big cheesy low-yield bomb would cause lots of trouble, say in a boat. In any case, Ill-boy is even more rone-ry than before&#8230;</p>
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